An interview with Tinubu at 60 - Leadership.

As Asiwaju Bola Ahmed Tinubu clocks 60 years of age today, he speaks on a range of national issues with our team of journalists. Here are the excerpts:

At what point in your life did you decide to plunge into the murky waters of Nigeria's politics?
I had always been involved in politics, though not on a full-time basis. Of course, I had a good job with Mobil Nigeria and I was doing very well in my profession as an auditor. Remember I trained in the United States as an accountant. On my return home, two of my friends and I became politically active, but not on a big time level.

We were then in the background, strategizing and doing some think-tank work for the Sarunmi group, which we believed in then. I was spent money to sponsor people to political offices. You know, like the unseen hand behind the scene.

The primaries of Sarunmi and Agbalajobi however came to a head to the extent that they were both disqualified. We were still brooding and looking at what other strategies to employ, but luckily, Yomi Edu had moved to the side of Sarunmi and by implication to our side.

Remember, Yomi Edu was equally very influential at the national level because of his closeness and relationship with Yar’Adua; so we thought we should follow him. We decided to follow Yomi Edu. We were tenacious, aggressive and we had our strategies. Our undoing was that some of us, rather naively, believed too much in the leadership.

We believed we would win. Well, it was at that point you learn the give-and-take spirit in politics and how to compromise, because we refused to compromise, we did not give the Jakande group the advantage, even when Yomi Edu emerged the winner, we did not yield any ground. I was just an adviser and a strategist then. Then the Jakande group got angry and waited until election day. We won everything (laughs).

Meanwhile, Kola Oseni and the rest of them put pressure on me saying ‘you cannot just be a strategist… we need you in the senate.’ So, I decided that even if I would join, it would be Lagos central. I had worked in Lagos, I have a place in Ikeja where Mama is staying right now.

I have a place in Ogba, so they said I had many addresses I could use. And the pressure was on me. I did not know that the information had gotten to IBB, who was very close to Mama then. When I met with Maryam Babangida at an event, she said, ‘We heard that you are about to join politics, please join, my husband speaks very highly of you.’ I think the following week, Kola Oseni and others came to see me again and that was the turning point. I went to Mobil to tell my supervisor.

I then went home and told my wife and surprisingly, Mama too had heard and she exclaimed, “Aha, the way you see politics is not the way it is in real practice o. Why are you are going to plunge yourself into a big murky pond of politics? You are doing well, you’ve bought a house. Please just go and enjoy your work in Mobil.’

But the other group too would not budge. They kept talking, telling me of the need to be fully involved in politics. They said they had started action on my venture into politics. They won’t leave my house and so when I went back, I simply told them “I had made up my mind, I will contest and go into the senate.” When I told my chairman and managing director at the time at Mobil, he said, ‘Well they do the same thing in America.

You are so brilliant that I do not want to release you to politics but because we have all these problems in Nigeria, lack of consistency in politics, accountability in governance, if people like you are there, at least Nigeria will change.

Therefore since we allow people in America that are good to go into governance and then later come back to their jobs, go write your request. I will not allow you to resign. Mobil still needs you. We are going to grant you four years leave of absence.’

So, Mobil granted me four years leave of absence. Then I was the treasurer of our political group.

I won the election landslide. I had the highest number of votes throughout the republic. It was the most celebrated victory and since then I never looked back. Even when the military terminated the our democracy two years later, I had the option of going back to Mobil or staying with the struggle. I decided to stay with the struggle. It is not for personal profits that I joined the political train. It is to uplift society.

Can you share some of your intimate experiences in the struggle with us?
That in itself is a whole book. Senator Abu Ibrahim and the rest of us formed the engine room of the Senate when I was there. I was to get the senate presidency… but that was out of my sheer stubbornness. But then, that is one thing I respect late Shehu Yar’Adua for. We insisted it had to be that way… Atiku was there then, Kingibe was also there. We insisted that the senate should be allowed to choose its leadership.

And therefore, we are not going to allow anyone to zone it out. If I was taking it, I was taking it! I was only going to surrender it on merit to the next zone that contributed the largest number of senators to the victory of SDP and it was North Central at that time. Back then, I had 38 senators supporting me for the president of the senate.

Before we got in there, Abiola, Olu Falae, Durojaye and Yar’Adua said I couldn’t take up the position if the Southwest Yorubas were looking for the president or the vice president seat. That was how that position was snatched away from me then. We formed the G-30 to back Abiola and to continue to pursue the democratisation of the country in earnest. We did that.

We supported Iyorcha Ayu. When they introduced Shonekan then as the interim president, we rejected him totally to the extent that the rejection put us in danger. It didn’t end there. When Abacha took over, more troubles started. We were accused of treason because we reconvened the senate in Lagos.

They started looking for us. They arrested Abu Ibrahim, Senator Okoroafor, Polycap Nwite of blessed memory and some others. Eventually, I had to surrender because I was asked to. The thinking was that if they got me in any hideout and killed me, nobody would know where I was. I had better surrender and face trial.

Senator Abu was one of the most reliable persons I know. I remember that Hassan Kastina intervened on his behalf so that Senator Abu could be released in isolation but he refused, saying that he was the only northerner among us and would not go unless the rest of us were released as well.

That endeared him to me with so much respect. We ended up going to the Appeal Court, then known as the Court of Justice.

They granted us bail; we resumed our protests on the streets of Lagos. It was hot for the military. Then, I was re-arrested, my house was petrol-bombed. My children and wife were evacuated in the dead of the night and dropped off in the bush somewhere.

Eventually, she was rescued and taken out of the country. At the time they also probed me for allegedly attempting to bomb Ejigbo and declared me wanted. It was then that the Canadian and American security personnel advised me that my life was in danger and I should leave the country, and I did not have my passport ready, but I still left (Laughter). I remember then that during the struggle, my house was burnt down and my family members were almost killed. Even without a passport, I left. I disguised as a mallam when I fled the country.

So how did you leave? 
I disguised. I became a solid mallam with a nice turban on a motorbike. I was even shuttling between Benin Republic and Nigeria then through the water ways. Not that I left without coming back I was still coming to organise protests and all that.

If you had known that MKO would die in prison, would you have advised him to take a different course of action?
First of all, there were a series of betrayals then. Abiola was encouraged to return to Nigeria. He would have continued his campaign abroad for his mandate and that would have been better.

But he returned to Nigeria. He came to Nigeria with the promise that he would be given his June 12 mandate. No matter what, we would have kept him away overseas and continued the struggle on his behalf. In retrospect, we shouldn't have encouraged him to come back to Nigeria but there was betrayal.

They promised that they were going to announce June 12. We did not know that Abacha was going to take over. The bail granted to him would have been taken but he was forced to decline. It was highly debated. The government was no longer believable. The people were saying all sorts of things, that it was cowardly and all that. But as believers in God Almighty, the final call is death.

Do you share the view that the annulment of the election by General Ibrahim Babangida was the first in the series of betrayals that happened?
The first betrayal to me was the cancellation of the election itself and it was the most regrettable and most cowardly. For someone who built the best political structure, looking at it today, Babangida put the best platform in place which would have been a great legacy.

You had offices for the political parties from the ward to national level. There were two parties then - SDP and NRC. If they had endured till today, Nigeria’s democracy would have been different.

Have you forgiven Babangida for that?
He has himself to forgive. For me, the damage was more to him than to anybody else, because he would have enjoyed a great legacy in the history of Nigeria.

Going to your involvement in AD, how did you survive the battle for Lagos against Obasanjo?
The battle was won more on the platform of our strategy, courage, strong determination and the lessons I learned from Abiola’s era. It can be summed up in the maxim, ‘Don’t ever, ever believe that man in military uniform.’

The hallmark of a military person is tactics, deception and conquest. When they describe their uniform as camouflage, what do they mean? What does it tell you – deception!

How did you win in the South West? What was it you saw that the other governors did not see?
Logically, I am a mathematician. I do my calculations thoroughly. I think outside the box and equally do critical evaluation of risk. That is the background I have. That is the background I was trained. How can a man in another political party (Obasanjo) ask me to allow him win the legislation so that they do not attempt to impeach him.

In the first place we had stood against his impeachment, it was impossible! Though we were from another party. Why would I believe you when you promise me mainstream… I did not vote for you the first time and you won the presidency, so go and win it again.

But the mandate I have, I won’t surrender it. It is a betrayal of our own conviction and the temptation of the vice president and members of his party coming from different directions based on the influence of our leaders to say, ‘He is a Yoruba man.’ I did not enter politics through being a Yoruba man and that is the truth. Obasanjo came and met me in Abiola’s house.

We ate Amala and vegetable soup together with MKO. A week later he said Abiola was not the messiah? Are you then the messiah? No. I was prepared for the battle.

And how well did you really get yourself prepared for the battle?
First of all, you must recognize the strength of your opponents, adversary or otherwise. If you fail to recognise this, you are doomed to fail. I saw Obasanjo as one of the most strategic, tactical individuals - and very deceptive. So, once you see him that way, you must take three or four steps ahead of him. I did that.

I was ready to go punch-for-punch and Lagos State was ready to bring his government down. Because, if somebody came into your house to steal ordinary yam or a bowl of garri and armed himself with hammers and he knocked on your doors and found them opened and he didn’t need any of those weapons, he didn’t hear or get any gunshots or hammer on his head, he will leave the yam, go to your living room to pack your electronics.

If he didn’t hear any reaction, he will go your bedroom and cart away your jewelry leaving the yam and garri behind. I was ready. Truly, we were ready. I didn’t react then because we loved democracy and didn’t want any army taking over. I even told them this question about not wanting the army to take over, which one? The civilian army or the real or military are we fighting? That was the truth.

But if you have a house with a very bad foundation and you harbor that believing that he who builds a house must not demolish it, then, that is engineering illiteracy. As far as I am concerned, if your foundation is not good, the house will fall and kill you. So, you better demolish it and rebuild its foundation.

What exactly is it that has kept Asiwaju going all these years?
Vision, ideas, believing that it is only great ideas coupled with the right issue that will build any entity, organization, individual or a group.

Talking about the last election, the ACN reclaimed almost all the states in the South West? How did you prosecute that particular struggle?
I employed three things that I learnt and practiced as an auditor. I insist there must be such documents in every transaction. It is like from cradle to grave. I anticipated what the PDP was going to do. I anticipated then that they would rig and I was prepared.

I charted the steps to be taken and had the whole of the best thinkers in the legal class I was working with to look at it. In government at Lagos, I ordered for scanners; I took forensics, did biometrics and instituted a system in my financial transaction of the government that is fraud proof and is not collapsible.

That same method will detect the source and irregularities during elections. And help democracy in the future and promote justice. That was how we went overseas and engaged forensic experts and we worked with them.

You said that one of the traits of a great leader is to be able to identify and hire people who are better than him. One of the toughest battles you’ve fought in recent times was having to single-handedly picked Gov. Fashola to succeed you in office. What were the lessons you learned from your fallout with Fashola?
I didn’t fall out with Fashola. I regard it as an insult to say that I quarreled or fell-out with him. I have come to realize that not everybody that says good morning really means that sometimes. People are opportunistic, selfish, greedy and diabolical. Trust is viral, it’s required, but can’t be used in isolation. It must be two ways.

You will find people that will betray you for money, position and opportunities. It was not Fashola per se. Some people were just bent on dividing Fashola and demystify Bola Tinubu, which I recognise. No matter how brilliant or talented he is, if I didn’t identify him and give him the opportunity, he wouldn’t have been anybody. God used me to achieve that. People were trying to destroy that. At a time, they were trying to dissuade him to stop taking ideas from me.

They queried why he had to visit Bourdillon in Ikoyi. At times, you find people talking about cracks where there are no cracks. Did you ever see me call for any press conference? Did you hear any comment from me? I took everything in my strides. So, no one can classify me as the ‘Adedibu’ of Lagos because it is an insult.

You will find in politics hills and valleys, twists and turns. So, I used the same maturity, the same level of intellectual curiosity to ask series of questions about all those rumours that were emanating then and I found that they were empty. Fashola himself never said anything negative about me, neither did he confront me. If I heard it from tale tellers, then it’s nothing.

Even recently, there was something being rumoured about me that I have been hit by stroke. You find all these lies. You can disagree on policies. He is not there to be a robot. Fashola was the best adviser I had then as the Chief of Staff and very antagonistic sometimes at some of my policies.

May times, he (Fashola) alongside with Muiz Banire, Tunji Bello, Rauf Aregbesola, Yemi Osibajo and a few others who were all part of my cabinet then would shoot down my bills even as the chief executive officer of Lagos State.

There is resentment in some circles in the South West that you're comparing yourself with or sort of trying to rival Chief Awolowo. How do you feel about it?
Going to rival Awolowo? He was a great philosopher. He must be my hero. When Awolowo died, he took his shoes, his cap and every other thing with him. He left nation for us to continue with. I have always been determined to succeed in everything I do. I believe it and I follow it doggedly and tenaciously.

I believe the fact that it is not only education that will make a human being because there are a lot of educated relics. But great education is within yourself and the ability to do that. But it’s not only that you are talented, but because there a lot of unrewarded talents out there and in different places. Follow a vision, be determined, be consistent, persevere through it and you will succeed. That has been my philosophy.

That is how I have seen myself in the professional world. It has helped me. I have enjoyed double promotion, I have enjoyed discrimination and enjoyed corporate success; not only in politics, I have inherited a state that was bankrupt. I took over that state. Many lived in that state. You see all sorts of trash within the state.

The infrastructure in Lagos State had almost collapsed when I took over. We were able to conquer it and turn the state around. Today, we have turned everything around and the state is now financially stable and autonomous, with good roads.

Today, people enjoy the city. I thank God that Obasanjo in his life time could celebrate his 76thbirthday on the serene waterfront of Lagos State. What a proud moment of my life.

President Jonathan’s body language suggests that he is interested in seeking for reelection in 2015. What do you think?
Jonathan is already biting more than he could chew. His election is over and his moment of frustration is gone too and he has overcome the fear and lack of belief that he will be able to emerge beyond acting as the acting president, and that is because we supported him on that. We supported him again in winning the election and the court has given him the mandate.

He should be less partisan now and become a statesman to run the affairs of this country. People might be pumping the notion of running in 2015 into his head without even performing through the first or second year in office and start asking him to start thinking of a second term; they are taking him into the valley of destruction.

He will fail. He will fail any attempt to elongate his period and even with the six years of one term - it is just the pipeline for corruption. Anybody that understands our democracy would realise that the occupier of the seat, position or authority of the Nigerian president is a very powerful position; more powerful than the President of the United States of America in terms of democracy, rule of law and procedure.

If he now says he can serve only a six-year period of one term, then he has opened an avenue for abuse of power and corruption. Whereas, if you have this first term of four years of accountability, rendering the state an account of performance. If you have served well, Nigerians are not sking for too much.

They have suffered too much in the past that they are now concerned with whatever you can do for them to make things easier, do it and they will re-elect you. So, let him think of the first four years, serve his country and think of quitting power. If in the first year, he is already talking about 2015 election, then he has failed.

Perhaps it is the lack of unity among the opposition parties that has paved the way for him. So, what is next?
I agree with you. He will not want us to be united. The PDP will do everything to disunite us. We will unite to the shame of the PDP. We will unite our plans.

But what happened to the proposed merger of the CPC and ACN before the April 2011 presidential election? Tell Nigerians what really went wrong.
There is no statistical experiment that the first time you sleep with your wife, she would get pregnant. You try next time. If you try the first time and it fails, don’t give up! Try again. You continue to try. To be honest with you, lack of sincerity and lack of strong commitment were responsible for the botched unity the CPC and ACN wanted to form to challenge the PDP in 2011.

We did everything we needed to do with sincerity. We were willing to put symbols together, recreate names and we would change every other thing to consolidate the marriage and the relationship. It didn’t work because it didn’t work. But we learnt a great deal of lesson from that. For us, we started early because the ruling party wouldn’t want us to unite.

You can’t have it your way all the time in politics; it’s about compromises and like I said earlier, it’s a give and take policy. You can’t have it your way. You can’t be afraid to do what ought to be done. Be determined not to fail. Don’t be afraid of failure. Ensure the elections are free and fair.

Asiwaju, looking back at how far you have gone in the struggle, how would you like to be remembered and what legacies would you want to bequeath?
There is no doubt that the struggle has been one tough, tortuous journey, but looking back, we thank God that it has been a successful one. It has been a very rewarding one. It is one which elicits hope for the millions of the hopeless.

It is one which promises smiles on the faces of our people. Again, i thank God for being able to contribute to the well-being of the people, the people of Lagos in particular. I want to be remembered for having fought the just cause on behalf of the people of Nigeria.

I again, want to be remembered as one who helped to deepen democracy and governance in fatherland, such that the labour of our heroes past will not be in vain. (Leadership Newspaper)